Minutes of Proceedings 18th July 206

Boardroom Floor 7 Goodwood House
BT1 4NN

Present


  • Mr Sid McDowell (Chairman)
  • Mr Jim McCusker
  • Mr Desmond Mitchell
  • Dr Collim Patton
  • Mr Brian Hanna
  • Professor Bernard Cullen

In Attendance


  • Mr Stephen Graham
  • Ms Susan Dornan
  • Ms Julie Thompson
  • Mr Pat McCartan (Chairman, LRA)
  • Mr Bill Patterson (Chief Executive, LRA)
  • Ms Penny Holloway (Director of Conciliation and Arbitration, LRA)
All in attendance for part of the meeting
The Commission meeting opened at 10.35am.

1. Apologies

Brenda McLaughlin and Iris Lovell.

2. Minutes of meeting 21st June

Commissioners agreed the minutes of the 21st June 2006 meeting.

3. Presentation from Labour Relations Agency

Pat McCartan, Bill Patterson and Penny Holloway arrived at 10.45 am. The delegation made a presentation to the Commission on the work of the Labour Relations Agency, explaining that their statutory role is to deal with collective and individual employment disputes. They stated that they want to have an early input into drafting legislation, and that they hope to work closely with the Commission in relation to RPA. Mr McCartan went on to explain that they see two important issues:
  1. The principle of “no detriment”, which they felt should not be defined but be left to an individual’s own perception.
  2. A mandatory procedure requiring conciliation, mediation, arbitration and adjudication, to ensure issues are dealt with as close to the source as possible. All internal grievance procedures should be exhausted before a case goes to tribunal.
Commissioners questioned the delegation on a number of issues, such as their interest in RPA, grievance procedures, and legislation on protecting the interests of staff. The delegation distributed a submission to Commission members and signaled a desire to work with the Commission to help shape the future direction in the areas outlined.
Discussion ensued on a number of issues including the role of the LRA in the transition period; the draft Libraries order and ramifications; resolution of disputes as close to the source as possible and a mix of informal and formal means for resolving disputes.  The delegation felt RPA was an opportunity to improve good practice throughout the public service and that there should be a common module for employment rights and issues. This also extends to the fourth sector (Quangos), where a number of the smaller organizations have no effective collective bargaining arrangements.
Discussion arose around the definition of a period of no detriment, and how the LRA dealt with the harmonisation, rationalisation and restructuring of the FE colleges. No agreement has yet been made on the period of no detriment. The Commission discussed whether pensions and location should be a factor in no detriment.  The LRA felt that pensions should be protected for more that three years and that the formation of a new body as a result of the RPA changes, would quickly lead to precedents being set.  The Chairman indicated the Commission’s intention to have dialogue with the LRA on an ongoing basis.
The delegation left at 11.45.

4. Matters Arising

Item 4.1

The Chief Executive reported he had raised the need for formal feedback on the Commission’s recommendations with government and that government has formally accepted the first guiding principle. Government has also drafted a protocol on the handling of papers for discussion later in this meeting. Commissioners discussed NIC/ICTU concerns on how government has treated PSC recommendations. Correspondence has been noted in the meantime.
Commissioners expressed some dissatisfaction that the recommendation had apparently been issued as an attachment to a message, issued by Nigel Hamilton, which referred to a number of extraneous items and which failed, for example, to mention the Commission website. The level of penetration to the 150 plus organizations affected by RPA was unclear.
Commissioners also expressed concern with the content and quality of the Outline Communications Strategy for RPA.  It was felt that the document was an inadequate reflection of the PSC recommendation.
Commissioners felt that presenting the paper to the Central Forum would have benefited communications and may have aided in resolving a number of the issues raised by NIC/ICTU.
Agreed: Chief Executive to raise the points made in a letter to government. The Chairman will also raise the issue at the next steering group meeting.

Item 4.2 Local Government Taskforce subgroups

The Chairman reported that a DOE taskforce has been set up, which reported at the end of June. The taskforce is split into two sections, with officers working with members to produce reports, and a political panel. Copies of the nine reports have been supplied to the Commission, and are also available on the DOE website. These reports will now go to the political panel, with the Minister making the final decisions on what will be included in the legislation. It was noted that the LGSC has sent out a vacancy control document for consultation to the Councils, Housing Executive and other bodies including the Commission.  This will result in amendment to the current recruitment code.
Agreed: Secretariat to compile a summary of the HR Sub Group report.

Item 4.3 Communications Strategy

The revised Communications Strategy was agreed.
Agreed: Secretariat to post the agreed Communication Strategy on the Commission website, which is now live.

5.Chairman’s Business

Item 5.1 Protocol for handling papers

Commissioners expressed a number of concerns with the proposed protocol.  In particular, they felt that employers were not catered for, that flowcharts should include monitoring and reporting of Commission recommendations and that staff had to be able to contribute directly. Commissioners also felt that the fourth sector (Quangos) was not being engaged, and did not feel involved in the process. The Chairman said he would raise the Commission’s concerns on the fourth sector with government and would suggest that, to alleviate the problem, government should facilitate a seminar (incorporating workshops) on RPA for the fourth sector.
Agreed: Chief executive to raise points made with government.
Discussion ensued on the need for the Commission to establish direct communication with employers. It was noted that the Secretariat had received a database from RPA detailing organisations which had been issued with copies of the final RPA recommendations.  It was suggested that the Secretariat should explore the possibility of developing its own database.
The Chairman indicated that they were still trying to arrange a tripartite meeting but this was proving difficult. Possible dates are 2nd August or 14th August 2006.

Item 5.2 RPA Legislation: staff related clauses and associated issues

Commissioners discussed the paper in light of Counsel’s legal advice and the letter received from NIC/ICTU.  The latter indicted that some of the fundamental issues might be more appropriately covered at the tripartite meeting.  Commissioners identified that a staff transfer scheme would have to include critical elements such as pensions, terms and conditions of employment and also give clear direction on dispute resolution.
Agreed:  Chief Executive to draft recommendations on staff transfers for discussion at the next Commission meeting.

Item 5.3 Proposals for staff transfers in HSS Trusts

Commissioners briefly discussed the proposals in light of the preceding discussion on legal advice received from Counsel.  Commissioners were surprised to be presented with this paper in advance of the HR framework document and indicated that their concern was with the transfer of staff, not with the transfer of assets.  Given the fundamental issue of TUPE, Commissioners felt that agreement had to be reached on this overarching principle first and that consideration of the issues presented in the paper was therefore premature.
Agreed:  Chief Executive to formally request HR framework document.

6. Managing Vacancies

Commissioners were disappointed that government officials were unable to attend the meeting.  Commissioners discussed the revised draft recommendation and the note received from Jim McKeown.  After discussion, the draft recommendation was agreed with a number of amendments.
Agreed:  Chief Executive to send the revised recommendation to Government with a covering letter addressing the points raised in Jim McKeown’s note, and to issue same to the sectoral commissions and NIC/ICTU.

7. Legal advice from Senior Counsel

Commissioners discussed the core issue of TUPE including the need for consistency of treatment with an equivalent approach for all staff; components of a transfer scheme (including pensions, dispute resolution); the Acquired Rights Directive; the need for legislation either as a single piece of legislation or replication of a single transferable module across all pieces of legislation affecting staff; harmonisation of terms and conditions; negotiation, and equal pay claims.  Commissioners reached consensus and determined it was necessary to consult on this fundamental issue.
Agreed:  Chief Executive to draft a short document outlining the Commission’s  disposition in favour of a single piece of legislation for staffing issues and for legislation which would establish that TUPE terms, conditions and appeal mechanisms would apply to all RPA transfers.  The draft will be discussed at the next Commission meeting.  Chief Executive to seek permission from senior counsel before sharing the legal opinion obtained with key stakeholders.

8. Paper from the Chief Executives of the Education and Library Boards

Commissioners discussed the handling of the paper submitted by the Chief Executives of the Education and Library Boards.
Agreed:  Chief Executive to contact the Chief Executives of the Education and Library Boards, indicating that the questions raised would be more appropriately directed to the Permanent Secretary DE, but that a number of the issues raised will inform the ongoing work of the Commission.

9. Paper from DHSSPS on Director Level Posts

Commissioners discussed the impact on other sectors, including the fourth sector (Quangos), reciprocity between sectors (including the need for clarification on the local government position), and the equality dimension.  Commissioners agreed that a decision would require further discussion with key stakeholders.
Agreed: Chief Executive to arrange for representatives from OFMDFM/DFP, NIC/ICTU and DHSS&PS to attend the next Commission meeting.
Agreed:  Chief Executive to seek clarification on the local government position if reciprocity was to apply.

10. Location of Services

Deferred until next meeting.

11. AOB

The Chairman informed Commissioners that he had received an invitation to speak at the ALARM event in September.  Commissioners were content for the Chairman to decide on whether or not it would be appropriate to attend.

12. Date of next meeting

The next meeting is scheduled for Wednesday 16th August 1030 – 1600hrs.
Chairman's Signature:Sid McDowell

Date of Chairman's Signature: 16th August 2006

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