Minutes of Proceedings 12th April 2006
Boardroom Floor 7 Goodwood House
Belfast BT1 4NN
Present:
- Mr Sid McDowell (Chairman)
- Mr Brian Hanna
- Mr Jim McCusker
- Mr Desmond Mitchell
- Dr Collim Patton
In Attendance:
- Mr Stephen Graham
- Ms Susan Dornan
- Ms Iris Lovell
- Ms Julie Thompson
DFP
- Mr Nigel Hamilton (Head of the NI Civil Service)
- Mr John Hunter (Permanent Secretary, DFP)
(All present for part of meeting)
DHSS&PS
- Dr Andrew McCormick (Permanent Secretary, DHSS&PS)
- Mr David Bingham (Director of Human Resources, DHSS&PS)
(All present for part of meeting)
Apologies:
Professor Bernard Cullen (present from 10.25)
Ms Judith Eve (present from 11.00)
Commission meeting opened at 10.05.
Welcome
The Chairman welcomed everyone, and invited Commissioners to agree the proposed agenda.
Agreed – Commissioners agreed the agenda for the meeting.
1. Apologies
1.1. The Chairman advised that Professor Cullen and Ms Eve were expected to join the meeting later.
2.Minutes of meeting held on 29th March 2006
2.1. Agreed – with three amendments; the alteration of the penultimate paragraph on page 4; and changes to the first and fourth paragraphs on page 5.
2.2. Noted – Secretariat to number paragraphs in future sets of minutes, and, as directed, prepare a detailed file note of meetings with delegations.
3. Meeting with Mr Hamilton and Mr Hunter
3.1. The Chairman provided an update to Commissioners on events which had taken place following the DHSS&PS presentation at the Commission meeting on the 29th March, notably contact with the Secretary of State (Tab 3c refers, letter from Chairman to SoS dated 5 April 2006), and access to legal advice (tabled paper, Mr Hunter to the Chief Executive, dated 11th April 2006).
3.2. Noted - Commissioners felt it was important to seek independent, authoritative legal advice which would address the impact of McCausland and other legislation/case law on the implementation of the RPA relating to equality and employment issues.
3.3. Agreed – On reflection following the 29th March meeting, Commissioners agreed that a member of the Steering Group Secretariat should be invited to attend for part of future Commission meetings.
3.4. Mr Hamilton and Mr Hunter arrived at 10.30. and, after formal introductions, Mr Hamilton made some opening remarks in which he thanked Commissioners for agreeing to serve on the Commission and indicated that the implementation of the RPA was a major, multi-dimensional challenge. Mr Hamilton expressed his strong, personal commitment to the Commission. He also advised of the creation of a small central unit within OFMDFM which will ‘service’ the proposed Steering Group.
3.5. Mr Hunter introduced the paper “RPA Implementation: Managing the HR Strands” (Tab 3b) acknowledging that it was not as definitive as the Commission might wish. The paper included the mapping of relationships (Annex 7) and stakeholders (see also tabled paper, Mr Daly to the Chief Executive, dated 7th April 2006).
3.6. There followed a general discussion during which Commissioners emphasised the need for clarity of communication between the Commission and Government; queried the executive power of the central unit in OFMDFM, the meaning of “harmonisation” in the education document and how this was to be achieved.
3.7. Commissioners noted, that, for the first time, the McCausland case had been mentioned in the revised DHSS&PS paper (Tab 5).
3.8. On the question of access to Government’s legal advice, and although Commissioners proposed that these were exceptional circumstances, Mr Hamilton indicated that he could not breach protocol. However, he offered to find a way forward in terms of sharing the full import of the legal advice.
3.9. The Chairman thanked Mr Hamilton for attending; he left at 11.43.
3.10. Mr Hunter highlighted TUPE, harmonisation, equal pay issues and efficiency savings as matters of interest and. that the cost of implementing RPA was to be borne out of existing budgets, but that there should be an overall benefit to the citizens of Northern Ireland.
3.11. Noted - The Chairman stated that the issue of terms and conditions was one that the Commission could not currently address, and that harmonisation and no detriment, were areas of principle which needed to be considered further by the Commission.
Mr Hunter left at 11.55.
4. Meeting with Mr McCormick and Mr Bingham, DHSS&PS
4.1. The Chairman welcomed Dr Andrew McCormick and Mr David Bingham, DHSS&PS to the meeting and invited them to talk to the revised paper submitted to the Commission.
4.2. Dr McCormick confirmed that in relation to the Chief Executive Designate post, the Department was working within the framework of a Senior Civil Service post, at Permanent Secretary level, adhering to the Civil Service Commissioner’s recruitment code of practice. He added that before any decision would be made on how this post might be filled, the Secretary of State wished to have a view from the Commission.
On the matter of the 5 Chief Executive posts in the new Trusts, a number of issues were identified, namely:
- getting the right person for the job
- morale and motivation of existing staff
- legal advice
4.3.Dr McCormick described the safe option, in legal terms, as an open competition – for filling the post of Chief Executive Designate and the five Trust posts.
4.4. Mr McCormick confirmed that the Secretary of State would await the advice of the Commission on all the posts discussed, before any decision on how to proceed, is taken.
4.5. The Chairman thanked the officials from DHSS&PS for attending the meeting and presenting their case to the Commission. He indicated that the Commission would deliberate on the Chief Executive Designate post, formulate a view and forward it, with the least possible delay.
5. Deliberations
5.1. There was considerable discussion around the Chief Executive Designate post, and the five Trust posts. The Chairman stated that he had spoken to the Secretary of State and indicated that the Commission did not wish to be rushed into a decision regarding the five Trust posts and enquired of his fellow Commissioners if it might be possible to reach a view on the Chief Executive Designate post. .
5.2. Thereafter, the Commission formed an initial view that it should offer “no objection” to an open competition for filling the Chief Executive Designate post by open competition, on a without prejudice basis, as it could be considered to be a substantially new post.
5.3. Commissioners also reflected on the fact that Government was committed to explaining why it might choose to disregard any advice it received from the Commission
5.4. Agreed – The Commission agreed, on a ‘without prejudice’ basis, and taking into account that this particular post could be considered in material respects to be a new one, it is not necessary to have a more limited competition on this occasion and that decisions on the five Trust posts should be deferred, pending independent legal advice and the outcome of the anticipated meeting with the Secretary of State.
5.5. Agreed: The Commission agreed it would be useful to pursue Mr Hamilton’s offer to share the import of Government’s legal advice but that it was also important to obtain independent legal advice prior to making a decision in relation to the 5 Trust posts.
5.6. Agreed – Commissioners agreed that the Department of Education would be required to make a detailed submission to the Commission on its proposals to fill the post of Chief Executive of the Education and Skills Authority.
5.7. It was suggested that statistics from NISRA might inform the Commission’s deliberations on the five Trust posts.
5.8. Agreed -- The Secretariat to request information from NISRA on the effect of limiting competition for the 5 Chief Executive posts.
6. Matters Arising
6.1. Freedom of Information
Noted- Commissioners noted advice from DFP that the Commission fell outside the scope of the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act. The Commission decided to act as though the FOI Act did apply and that requests for information would be dealt with on a case by case basis, or until such times as a policy paper was presented to them by the Secretariat.
7. Chairman’s Business
7.1. The Chairman is speaking at the Local Government Staff Commission event on 25th April. Commissioners were invited to attend.
Agreed – Those who wish to attend the event should contact the secretariat to make arrangements.
7.2. Research
The secretariat has requested funding for research from DFP, but in the interim, the Commission could use the funding currently available.
Agreed- The Secretariat will start research, commencing with best practice in Scotland, Wales and Republic of Ireland, and present draft recommendations.
7.3. Legal advice
A draft tender document has been sent to CPD to procure legal advice prior to public advertisement, with a view to awarding a contract by the end of May. In the interim, the Secretariat was asked to procure legal advice as necessary.
7.4. Procedural Guidance
Noted – Procedural guidance will be ready in final draft form and be available to Commissioners in advance of the next meeting.
7.5. Commissioner’s fees and expenses.
The Secretariat undertook to resolve the arrangements to enable Commissioners to claim fees and expenses on a quarterly basis
7.6. Requests to meet the Commission.
Requests have been received from several bodies to meet with the Commission. These include the Chair of the Rural Development Council, the Chief Officers of the 5 Education and Library Boards and Mary Bunting from the RPA Implementation team (on the specific issue of ‘equality’).
7.7 Agreed- Mary Bunting to be invited to attend the Commission’s meeting for up to 1hour on 26th April 2006, that the Chairman should offer to meet with the Chief Officers of the Education and Library Boards (supported by the Secretariat) and that the Chief Executive should meet with the Rural Development Council.
7.8. Vacancy notices
Agreed - Commissioners agreed to consider, at the next meeting, a draft recommendation for filling vacancies, taking account of arrangements proposed for the Health Service.
8. Any Other Business
8.1. There was some discussion on Mr Hunter’s letter of 7th April.
Agreed – The Secretariat to send a short response, stating that a number of issues cannot be dealt with until the Commission has met with the Secretary of State.
8.2. Meeting with the Secretary of State
Commissioners discussed issues to be raised with the Secretary of State, including the need to address how Government might explain why it might choose to disregard the advice of the Commission.
Agreed – Commission should seek to influence the agenda for this meeting.
8.3. Noted- Commissioners noted the need to keep under consideration the fact that political parties might wish to meet the Commission.
9. Not used.
10. Date of next meeting
The next meeting was arranged for 26th April 2006
The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 16.00hrs
Chairman’s signature:
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Date of Chairman’s signature:_26th April 2006_