Minutes of Proceedings 16th August 2006

Boardroom Floor 7 Goodwood House
BT1 4NN

Present

  • Mr Sid McDowell (Chairman)
  • Mr Jim McCusker
  • Mr Desmond Mitchell
  • Dr Collim Patton
  • Mr Brian Hanna
  • Professor Bernard Cullen
  • Mrs Brenda McLaughlin (present from 1300hrs)

In Attendance

  • Mr Stephen Graham
  • Ms Susan Dornan
  • Mrs Iris Lovell

Government

  • Mr John Hunter (Permanent Secretary DFP)
  • Mr John Ritchie (DOE )
  • Mr Will Haire (Permanent Secretary DE)
  • Mr Andrew McCormick (Permanent Secretary DHSS&PS)
  • Mr Paul Simpson (Deputy Secretary DHSS&PS)

NIC/ICTU

  • Ms Patricia McKeown (Regional Secretary, Unison)
  • Mr John Corey (NIPSA General Secretary)
  • Ms Beverley Jones (Jones & Cassidy, legal advisors)
All in attendance for part of the meeting
The Commission meeting opened at 10.30am.

1. Apologies

Julie Thompson.
The Chairman indicated that there would be a round table discussion on filling senior posts.  This was to provide the opportunity to promote a common understanding of the issues involved in filling senior posts which may well have implications for the other sectors involved in the RPA.  It was also seen as an opportunity for Government to hear how the Commission had developed its thinking on the RPA affected group and why it was moving towards a preferred position.  For practical purposes, Government was invited to send up to six representatives and NIC/ICTU were offered the opportunity to send up to two representatives.
The Chairman advised that Brenda McLaughlin had decided it would not be appropriate for her to be present at the morning session due to a possible conflict of interest with her role as the Chair of the Civil Service Commissioners.
The Chairman reported that Mary Hinds, the Director of the Royal College of Nursing had contacted the Chief Executive and had informally requested to be represented at today’s round table discussion.  The Chief Executive had discussed the situation with Ms Hinds and explained that this would not be possible on this occasion. The RCN may write seeking a formal invitation to meet the Commission.

2. Minutes of meeting 18th July

Commissioners agreed the minutes of the 18th July 2006 meeting with some amendments.

3. Round table discussion with representatives from OFMDFM/DFP, DHSS&PS and NIC/ICTU

Government and NIC/ICTU arrived at 11.00am. The Chairman welcomed the delegation and outlined the background to the round table discussion.  He indicated that the Commission had been moving towards, but had not yet reached a preferred position whereby those at risk of redundancy by virtue of their position within the RPA affected group should be given the first opportunity to fill new posts.  This would of course be subject to analysis of the relevant data, to establish that such an approach represents a proportionate means of meeting the Secretary of State’s aim to make every possible effort to avoid redundancies in a way which is compliant with statutory obligations, including Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
There was discussion on the need to clearly define the RPA affected group; exceptions to the preferred position; reciprocity across sectors; powers of direction under the 1972 Local Government Act; the protections afforded by the 1972 provisions; the Acquired Rights Directive; equality dimensions, and legislation to ensure consistency of treatment.
With reference to filling posts in the HSSA which is due to be operational in April 2008, issues discussed included the difference in legal status between the Trusts and the HSSA; the Civil Service Commission exemptions; alternative mechanisms for filling posts in the HSSA other than temporary appointment to the Civil Service; the draft HPSS HR Framework document dated 1 August 2006 and the need for clarification and revised wording on seeking suitable alternative employment.
The Chairman thanked the participants indicating that the discussion had been helpful.
The delegation left at 13.00hrs.

4. Deliberations arising from Item 3

The Chairman invited Commissioners to discuss a proposed, preferred position, that the field of consideration for new posts or work should be the RPA affected group, subject to an analysis of the data and all statutory obligations being met.
Commissioners Brenda McLaughlin was present but did not participate in the deliberations. discussed a number of issues including the definition of what might constitute new work; the need for data analysis and definition of the RPA affected group; the requirement to act proportionally; the need for criteria to identify exceptional posts which might fall outside the preferred position; reciprocity, to ensure consistency of treatment across all sectors including the fourth sector “Quangos” such as RDC and NIFHA, and the possibility of an agreement on no compulsory redundancies until a specified date.
If there was a presumption in favour of the RPA affected group, Government could then only depart from this in exceptional cases after approaching the Commission with a concise, defensible rationale for deviating from the preferred field of consideration. The Chief Executive informed the Commission that Government might seek exceptions for 10 posts at SCS level (including the Chief Executives of the HSSA and ESA) in the Health and Education sectors.
Agreed: Chief Executive to seek confirmation from Government that the Government’s current power of direction to local councils will apply to the new councils.
The discussion moved onto legislation and the possibility of Government taking powers similar to the tailor made scheme of 1972, imposing an obligation on all employers, including local government, to restrict the field of consideration to the RPA affected group.  
The Commission considered the need for legislation in the form of a statutory transfer of staff to ensure continuity of employment and to protect terms and conditions of employment, including pensions.
Agreed: Legal advisor to draft wording for staff transfer legislation including compensation scheme, pensions and location for discussion at the next Commission meeting.
Following much discussion on the posts at Director level within the 5 new Trusts, Commissioners agreed that sufficient detailed information had not been provided to enable the Commission to take a decision and it was agreed that the Chief Executive would write to Government requesting further information.  
Agreed: The Chief Executive to write to Government requesting further detailed information, including job description(s) and the number of posts under consideration.

Item 5 Staff Transfers Paper

 
Commissioners were asked for their comments on the Staff Transfers paper.
A discussion followed and suggested amendments were noted. The Chairman and the Chief Executive undertook, in consultation with the Legal Advisors, to recast the document encapsulating proposals/amendments and to re-circulate to Commissioners in advance of the next meeting.   
Agreed: Chief Executive to recast the Staff Transfers paper, incorporating the wording to be proposed by the legal advisor, to reflect the discussion and to re-circulate to Commissioners.

Item 6 Managing Vacancies

The Chairman referred to the paper received from Government, commenting on the recommendation forwarded by the Commission.
Following some discussion, it was agreed that the Chairman and the Chief Executive would draft a response to Government, circulate via e-mail to Commissioners, and forward the agreed corporate response to Government.
Agreed: The Chairman and Chief Executive to draft a response, circulate to Commissioners for comment and forward agreed version to Government.

Item 7 Matters Arising

Due to time constraints, matters arising were not discussed.

Item 8 Chairman’s Business

  • Govnet Conference

Commissioners were advised of a conference entitled “Shaping the Future of Public Services in Northern Ireland” on 3rd October in the Waterfront Hall and asked to inform the Secretariat if they wished to attend.

  • TUPE Conference

Commissioners were informed of a conference entitled “TUPE Practical Guidance on the impact of New Transfer Undertakings”, on 22nd September in London and it was agreed that a member of the Secretariat would attend and provide a summary.

  • PSC Staffing

The Chairman advised Commissioners that the Chief Executive’s replacement, Brian Martin, would be joining the team on 11th September.

  • Pay Slips

Commissioners were advised that pay slips, to support the recent payment made to each Commissioner, were available for collection from the Secretariat. Commissioners were reminded to retain and submit receipts to support claims for car parking fees.  

Item 9 Any Other Business

None discussed.

Item 10 Date of next meeting

The next meeting is scheduled to take place on Wednesday 30th August from 1330 – 1600hrs and lunch will be available at 1300hrs on the 8th floor.

Chairman's Signature:Sid McDowell
Date of Chairman's signature: 20th September 2006

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