Minutes of Proceedings 24th May 2006

Boardroom Floor 7 Goodwood House
Belfast BT1 4NN

Present

  • Mr Sid McDowell (Chairman)
  • Mr Jim McCusker
  • Mr Desmond Mitchell
  • Mr Brian Hanna
  • Dr Collim Patton
  • Professor Bernard Cullen
  • Mrs Brenda McLaughlin

In Attendance


  • Mr Stephen Graham
  • Ms Iris Lovell
  • Ms Julie Thompson
  • Mr Will Haire
  • Mr Ray Long
  • Mr Liam Barr
(for part of the meeting)

1. Apologies

Ms Susan Dornan
Commission meeting opened at 10.40. and the Chairman welcomed Brenda McLaughlin, who, by virtue of her position as Chairperson of the Civil Service Commission, had been invited to serve on the Commission.  

2. Minutes of the meeting 9th May

Commissioners agreed the minutes of the meeting of 9th May.

3. Matters Arising

Item 3.1 Meeting with the Secretary of State

The Chairman reported that he had updated Jim McCusker and Brenda McLaughlin on the meeting, where the Secretary of State had reiterated his assurance that the Commission would be given its place and that identifiable political leadership, in the form of David Hanson, Minister of State, would be keen to maintain contact with the Commission as the work evolved.
A draft letter as a follow up to the meeting was circulated and Commissioners agreed the content, subject to one minor amendment.
Agreed: Amended letter to be forwarded to the Secretary of State.  
The Chairman added that the offer of a meeting with Minister Hanson had been received and arrangements were in progress to confirm details for a meeting on Monday 5th June, at 5 30pm at Stormont Castle.

Item 3.2 Legal Advice

The Chairman advised that 3 tenders had been received by the Central Procurement Unit;  from L’Estrange and Brett, DLA Piper Rudnik/Carson McDowell and Jones and Cassidy. He reported that following an evaluation panel meeting on Tuesday 23 May, Jones and Cassidy had been successful and would provide the Commission’s legal advice, just as soon as formalities had been completed.

4. Will Haire - Permanent Secretary, Department of Education

Mr Will Haire, Mr Ray Long and Mr Liam Barr arrived at 1100 hrs
The Chairman welcomed the delegation and invited them to present to the Commission.
Mr Haire started by giving a brief background on the new Education and Skills Authority (ESA) and the role it will assume.
He advised that the Department is working with a Communications Steering Group, which has prepared a draft Communications Strategy. The delegation felt that honesty was the key element of good communication, and that they were working on news sheets, FAQ’s and road shows. They advised that the Communications Strategy had regard for the need for the Minister to be seen to be associated with the change programme for the Education sector. They also offered to share the draft with the Commission, prior to it being published.
Mr Haire advised that as the ESA would be a major organisation, embracing the responsibilities of the 5 Library Boards and other bodies, the job description for the Chief Executive, although not drafted, would be significantly wider than any of the current posts at Chief Executive level.
Discussion arose around open competition for this post. Some Commissioners felt that the decision to go to open competition would inevitably determine that there was a feeling that current staff would not be capable of undertaking the role. Mr Haire was asked for his assessment of the current 1st and 2nd tiers and his estimate was that this might amount to around twenty people.
Mr Haire stated that open competition could produce capable applicants with a lot to bring, whilst internally it was difficult to assess how competently the current incumbents would perform, when assessed against the level required for the extensive specification aligned with the new role as Chief Executive of the ESA.
Concern was expressed that this scenario could be applied repeatedly, thereby initiating redundancy situations. The Commission was advised that there were HR managers, finance directors etc, in place, which should negate the need for open competition at other levels.
Mr Haire advised that the new Chief Executive will be involved in determining the structure of the new Education & Skills Authority, and therefore, there was a desire and pressure at Ministerial level to initiate the recruitment process as a matter of urgency.
Further discussion ensued on harmonisation, and whether it should be attempted before or after transfer. Mr Haire advised that no decision had been taken and that they would welcome the Commission’s advice. Commissioners added that legal advice would be required on this issue.
Discussion ensued on timescales, and Mr Haire advised that their aim was to have PSC approval in the first instance, and then to proceed accordingly. Mr Haire stated that the Department was aware that establishing a process for managing vacancies was a matter of priority.
The Commission requested job descriptions, information on age and structure and composition at 1st and 2nd tier levels, to help inform its decision making.
The Commission advised Mr Haire that further substantive discussion on the subject was necessary, once the information requested was available.
The delegation agreed and left the meeting at 1220hrs.
Following a discussion on the presentation from the Department of Education Commissioners agreed that they would await further information before reaching any conclusions.
Agreed; Commissioners to revisit the post of Chief Executive of the ESA , when the information is received.

5. Chairman’s Business

Item 5.1 The Chairman reported that he had been invited to open a conference entitled Managing Change Effectively 29th June. He advised that he was unavailable due to other commitments.
He reported that he would be attending a NIPSA conference on Tuesday 30th May, the RPA Steering Group on 2 June and an event organised by the Staff Commission for Education and Library Boards on Tuesday 6th June.
He advised Commissioners that the Local Government Staff Commission was hosting a Communications Conference on 14th June at the Stormont Hotel. Commissioners were invited to consult their diaries and let the Secretariat know of their availability and the necessary arrangements would be made.

6. Chief Executive Posts in the 5 new Trusts

The Chairman invited comments from Commissioners on how they wished to respond to the proposal from DHSSPS, adding that there was pressure from Government for a decision to be taken.
Much discussion followed, particularly in relation to the legal advice and how , once a decision was made, in relation to whether to advertise internally or advertise externally, there had to be justification to prove that the decision demonstrated a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim.
There was debate also on:
  • the Deloitte report,
  • the impact of the McCausland case
  • the Commission’s remit to safeguard the interests of staff and the inherent obligation to mitigate potential redundancy situations,
the inclusion in the job specification of experience within the Health and Social Services environment
  • the advantages and disadvantages of a 2 stage approach to the competition
  • the advantages and disadvantages of restricting the pool to the specific sector affected
  • the advantages and disadvantages of opening the pool to all RPA affected sectors
  • the advantages and disadvantages of moving directly to open competition.
Commissioners expressed a varied range of opinions during the lengthy debate, however a consensus was reached that applications for the 5 posts within the new Trusts should be invited from those people employed in the public sector organisations directly affected by the announcement made by the Secretary of State on 22 November 2005, subject to “proofing” by the Commission’s legal advisors and should the Department be unable to fill the post by the public sector competition, that the Commission would offer no objection to an open competition.
Agreed; Commissioners agreed that a recommendation should be drafted in line with above consesnus, and legal advice sought before it is circulated to Commissioners for comment and an agreed version forwarded to Government.
The Chairman reminded Commissioners of the confidentiality aspect, which should, as a matter of form, be afforded to all documents and discussions associated with Commission meetings.

6b. Managing Vacancies

Commissioners were asked to consider a tabled paper entitled Managing Vacancies, which it is proposing to send out for consultation. Commissioners made several suggestions on how to recast the paper, proposing some cosmetic changes, which the Secretariat undertook to make and to re-circulate to Commissioners for comment.

7. RPA Implementation advice on guiding principles

Commissioners discussed the paper at Tab 5 forwarded by DFP reaching a conclusion that the paper raised a number of queries in relation to;
  • TUPE and the reference to TUPE type clauses
  • Lack of reference to tenure
  • Reference to the Government Actuary
  • Pensions
  • Lack of reference to Early Retirement Schemes.
Commissioners reached a consensus that a coaching session with the newly appointed legal advisors on TUPE in particular would be beneficial and should be organised as a matter of priority.
Agreed; The Secretariat would arrange for Jones and Cassidy to deliver a tutorial type session to Commissioners in the near future.
Commissioners asked for DFP to be thanked for the paper, adding that it would be revisited and further comments would be forthcoming following receipt of legal advice.
Agreed; The Secretariat would advise DFP accordingly and would arrange for the paper to be tabled as a substantive agenda item in due course.

8. Any other business

It was proposed that a paper on Harmonisation should be commissioned for discussion as soon as possible.
Agreed; Commissioners agreed that a paper on Harmonisation would be of benefit to the Commission.

9. Date of the next meeting

The date of the next meeting is Monday 5th June from 1330hrs until 1630hrs and this meeting will take place in the Stormont Estate. Exact details of arrangements will be advised directly to Commissioners as soon as these are confirmed.
Chairman's Signature:Sid McDowell
Date of Chairman's signature:  05th June 2006

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